Blue Owl Capital Inc Q3 2025 Earnings Call Transcript

The following is excerpted from the question-and-answer section of the transcript.

Question: Patrick Davitt - Bernstein Autonomous LLP - Analyst : Good morning, everyone. I have a question on retail flows. I guess, through the lens of the volatility in August. It looks like October 1 subscriptions were still quite strong. Do you have any early view on how the credit volatility we've seen the news flow has or has not impacted the numbers we're going to see for November 1? Thank you.

Question: Brian McKenna - Citizens JMP Securities LLC - Analyst : So if I look at all of your public companies, that includes OWL, OBDC, OTF, all three continue to deliver pretty strong results across the board. You look at the underlying fundamentals, they remain some of the best in the industry. And even for your public BDCs, they are really the best in the industry. And then you look at direct lending, gross returns that you reported today, it should be another strong quarter for your BDC. REFINITIV STREETEVENTS | www.refinitiv.com | Contact Us consent of Refinitiv. 'Refinitiv' and the Refinitiv logo are registered trademarks of Refinitiv and its affiliated companies. OCTOBER 30, 2025 / 2:00PM, OWL.N - Q3 2025 Blue Owl Capital Inc Earnings Call So your fundamentals remain really strong, but you look at all the stocks and they're trading at a pretty meaningful discount to peers. So what do you think is still misunderstood about your businesses within the market today? And what are you doing as a management team to change these perceptions and ultimately get these stock prices higher? And then does there come a point when insiders start to step in and they ultimately start buying some of these stocks? Marc Lipschultz - Blue Owl Capital Inc - Co-Chief Executive Officer, Co-Founder, Director So as to what investors don't understand, it's probably hard for us to give you a comprehensive answer in fact, you obviously talked to a lot of investors, we can offer some theories. I can certainly tell you what we're doing. We're doing two things that I think at the end of the day, will solve this problem. One, we are executing, executing, executing. Business is good. Business is continuing to be good. And we're focused on continuing to deliver. We haven't seen an opportunity as good for investors and by extension for Blue Owl as the digital infrastructure investment cycle that we're in. And so we're just going to continue to deliver results for investors and continue to deliver -- frankly, we're short capital in an arena like that. So I think that execution is the name of the game, internal for us and then communication, we are out on the road talking to shareholders all the time. Everyone in the senior team here is, by the way, happy to do it. We like spending time with shareholders and we're out on the road, and we'll answer any question anybody has. So I think we can communicate. We're trying to spend time answering questions as best we can in the media as well. So we're going to communicate and execute. And to what you just said, look to our way of thinking, it couldn't be better set. I mean the reality is we -- in every one of these vehicles they're an incredible value. So rather than complain about it, which I know is a natural tendency we can have, that seems kind of pointless, rather, we're just going to continue to deliver spectacular results. Look at where we are compared to where we were when we set up our Investor Day, we're tracking right along. Look at like RDE this year versus what people thought a year ago and compare that to what the revisions happened with our peers. I mean we're in a different category as we should be because we have a highly predictable fee stream. So I don't know, we'll take advice from anyone on how better to do either of those things or crack the code, but history is a guide, those who join us now, I think, are going to be the beneficiaries of the upside from here, which we think of is substantial.

Question: Craig Siegenthaler - Bofa Merrill Lynch Asset Holdings Inc - Analyst : My question is on the digital infra business. So we've seen these large deals recently, like the $27 billion deal to develop the Hyperion data center. And I'm sorry, I'm losing my voice a little bit here, but I believe the underlying leases have maturities of about 15 to 20 years. So my question is, under what scenarios can Meta terminate or walk away from the lease earlier than 15 years? And if they do that, what compensation would they owe Blue Owl funds? And how would that impact the IRR for Blue Owl LPs on that investment? REFINITIV STREETEVENTS | www.refinitiv.com | Contact Us consent of Refinitiv. 'Refinitiv' and the Refinitiv logo are registered trademarks of Refinitiv and its affiliated companies. OCTOBER 30, 2025 / 2:00PM, OWL.N - Q3 2025 Blue Owl Capital Inc Earnings Call Marc Lipschultz - Blue Owl Capital Inc - Co-Chief Executive Officer, Co-Founder, Director Yeah. So the leases -- first of all, let's step back. The leases are designed to function for 20-plus years. So just to start to level set to your point. There is a -- it is -- and this is part of the skill and art that both Meta and I think we brought to it. They're designed in a very bespoke way to create elements of flexibility for Meta. Of course, as you know, they're actually -- just yesterday, we're talking about how they're actually rapidly accelerating their spend. So I think this is more about having a flexibility, which I give them full credit for than having anything that's likely to be used. But just to cut through it all and I don't want to lose the forest for the trees. If there were an early termination, there is a perfectly mathematical make whole where we make -- the debt makes all its money. We make a spectacular equity return under every circumstance. So it is really -- it doesn't -- we expect it will end up being a 20-plus year undertaking but it actually -- you call it doesn't matter. If we terminated anywhere along where they have the options to do it, there is a value guarantee on the assets. So we make a great return under any one of those conditions. So there's -- we're happy any which way.

Question: Bill Katz - Cowen and Company LLC - Analyst : I wish it was a day we could ask more than one. Maybe sticking with the digital story. I was wondering if you could help us understand how quickly you might be able to absorb the most recent flagship fundraising given the size of the pipeline? And then secondarily, despite the strong macro dynamics, the fund performance has been pretty weak two quarters in a row. I was wondering if you can help us unpack why that's the case? And would that be a hindrance to drive growth from here? Thank you. Marc Lipschultz - Blue Owl Capital Inc - Co-Chief Executive Officer, Co-Founder, Director Yeah. Let's first just clear up the accounting, therefore, kind of is -- not your misunderstanding understandable misunderstanding of the return points. So Alan you cover that first and then I'll talk about fund.

Question: Benjamin Budish - Barclays Services Corp - Analyst : I wanted to ask about operating leverage in the business. You indicated, I think, earlier in the Q&A that you expect -- you do expect FRE acceleration in the next few years. Curious if I just look at this quarter, you did have a big step-up in credit management fees, I think driven by the listing of OTF, but margins are still that low 57% range. I guess that was presumably embedded into your prior full year guidance. But can you just remind us like why wasn't there more in the quarter? And as we think about the next several years, obviously, a lot going on in the top line and from a fundraising perspective, but how else are you thinking about expanding FRE margins and what that may look like? Thank you. Marc Lipschultz - Blue Owl Capital Inc - Co-Chief Executive Officer, Co-Founder, Director There's a reason that we're -- there's a reason that we grow faster and more predictably than anyone in our industry. And there's a reason that we get to strategic places like digital infrastructure and alternative credit. And I want to say that other people are doing a phenomenal job, they are. But there's a reason when you just step back and put the numbers on a piece of paper, we are in a category of our own. And it's because we invest in continuing that track forward. So we will continue, of course, to be a highly profitable business. You continue to see our margin this quarter at 57% plus. Sure, there's some operating leverage in the business over the medium term. But just -- from our point of view, that is not where you make money in our business. We have 30 more basis points of margin and gave up investing in the thing that's going to be the continuation of this accelerated growth two years from now, it'd be a really terrible trade. REFINITIV STREETEVENTS | www.refinitiv.com | Contact Us consent of Refinitiv. 'Refinitiv' and the Refinitiv logo are registered trademarks of Refinitiv and its affiliated companies. OCTOBER 30, 2025 / 2:00PM, OWL.N - Q3 2025 Blue Owl Capital Inc Earnings Call So we don't find the idea of trying to squeeze a $0.01 out of our margin versus invested in the future a worthwhile trade. So yes, there's operating leverage, but you should expect -- you should -- I mean I don't want to tell you what you should want us to do, that's obviously your call, but I would prefer you should want us to continue to invest in this dramatic outperformance over the long term versus trying to optimize the last dollar of margin today. And so that's where we are. We will continue to make growth investments. So I'd rather have you think about us as growing for a very, very long time at a very high margin with the highest fee rate, by the way, which we do have in the industry. But whether we take the last 50 basis points of margin to the bottom line or put it into the business, pun intended, on the margins, you should expect we want to put that in the business, so we continue to outperform so dramatically in North Star, $5 billion of revenue, $3 billion of FRE. That's where we're going.

Question: Crispin Love - Piper Sandler & Co. - Analyst : I want to go back to digital infrastructure, definitely had some meaningful announcements recently, the Qatar Investment Authority partnership, the Meta JV. When do you think of upcoming data center opportunities, what type of pipeline are you looking at? Are you able to put a dollar value on that? And then as well as just expected structures for these types of investments, could structures evolve? And then just on the Meta JV, why do you think the JV structure made the most sense for that one? Marc Lipschultz - Blue Owl Capital Inc - Co-Chief Executive Officer, Co-Founder, Director Yes. It's a wonderful question about the structures because if you look at the three largest data center complexes financings done, which no surprise, I'll note, all three are ours. The -- that each one is a different structure. And I think this is really an important point to understand. In the hundreds and hundreds of billions and to quantify, I don't even quite know how to quantify the pipeline because it's so vast in terms of the number of projects that we've already signed or that we're advanced on or that we're talking about. And remember, the size of each one is just so massive. But in excess of $100 billion for sure in terms of the way we would look at our pipeline. So let's call the pipeline or addressable market for practical purposes kind of infinite. It doesn't really matter. That's not the constraint. And by the way, if I'm sure we all did look at the numbers from yesterday from all the big hyperscalers and the articles in the journal and I was reading the journal, three articles are, I'll talk about one very core theme from Google, from Meta, from Microsoft, dramatic acceleration in capital spending beyond what the big numbers are people already thought and had. And if you actually, I think, talked to a lot of folks, they'd say we're underspending in the opportunity not over. Now I don't want to be in a position and we're not in a position to take that risk. We do things under long-dated contracts with exceptionally high-quality companies where we earn these really, really strong and growing yields. So that's our part. We're the picks and shovels, we're the infrastructure of that part, but with that said, there are multiple structures, and this is part of the strength we can deliver at Blue Owl. I think the reason that we are prevailing in this market is because we can serve as that one-stop shop, depending on what kind of solution you want, and I'm going to just quickly take you through this. If you look at -- if you look at the Abilene, Texas or Stargate project as sometimes referred to, so that project, we're developing in partnership with a fantastic company, Cruso, who recently just announced their own actual financing, which we're a part of, but that really reflects the strategic partnership we have with Cruso. REFINITIV STREETEVENTS | www.refinitiv.com | Contact Us consent of Refinitiv. 'Refinitiv' and the Refinitiv logo are registered trademarks of Refinitiv and its affiliated companies. OCTOBER 30, 2025 / 2:00PM, OWL.N - Q3 2025 Blue Owl Capital Inc Earnings Call They're outstanding at what they do. They've been a pioneer in this business. They have big projects they're working on and we're working together on how we look there in the development business, and we're in the own -- the capital business. It's a wonderful compliment. So in that case, they're the developer, and we're the owner and Oracle is the tenant. So that's one structure. In the case of the Borderplex project, which is now -- and that one, by the way, Phase 1 and 2, that was a $15 billion project. In Borderplex, that's a $22 billion project. In Borderplex, we're the developer. Remember, we have a business called STACK. STACK has about 1,000 people in it. This is another one of the -- may or may not be fully understood, but the gigantic barriers to answer here is everyone's happy to own a data center. We just took one of our data centers we had created organically and say we're creating our data centers at 7, 8 cap rates, we just agreed to sell one at a 5.25% cap rate. So everyone would like to own them. The question is, how do you get to own them at 7 and 8 cap rates? Well, you have to have the partnerships and be able to either with Cruso or on your own, in the case of this on our own, develop. So STACK, We have 1,000 people that do design, build, operate. And it's not about what you did today. It's about what you did two years ago to position yourself with the right land and the right power and the right to understand into the regulatory frameworks and how to actually get this done because getting it done it matters as much as the capital and we do both. And then the third iteration is Meta. Meta develops and is very good at developing their own data centers. So they're saying, okay, well, I don't need the development, what I need is someone that can deliver $27 billion of capital that understands my business and understands all the nuances that are going to go into developing this project. So our expertise isn't like we need to build it away for them, but rather expertise allows us to structure in partnership with Meta in a way that meets their needs. So they say, oh, yeah, like, it's great. We get to work with someone that understands what we're doing. And so Meta is building that project. So what I like about that just so happens that all three, you see three different all good flavors depending on what the user of the data center wants, and we are positioned to do all three, and we're happy to do all three.

Question: Brennan Hawken - Bank of Montreal - Analyst : I wanted to ask a clarifying question and then one a little bit more forward-looking. So I think Alan, in your prepared remarks, you were talking about the GP Stakes business and then you went into fundraising expectations. So I was a little unsure about whether or not -- I thought those fundraising expectations were firm wide and not narrowly to the GP Stakes business where you expect 4Q to be equal to 2Q and 3Q levels, but just want to confirm that. And then you also highlighted expectations for management fee acceleration in the real asset business. Does that mean that the fee rate step down that we saw this quarter should recover? Or are you going to be seeing strong revenue growth despite the lower fee rate?

Question: Alexander Blostein - Goldman Sachs Group Inc - Analyst : Another one for you guys related to credit, and while the three instances that occurred a few weeks ago seemed to be related to fraud and it sounds like there's another one this morning with HPS and kind of those headlines coming out in the last hour or so here. But I guess, as you look at the credit exposures broadly across your platform and acknowledging that those four are like not really related to you guys. And it sounds like it was all related to fraud. But how are you addressing potential fraud risks across the platform? Is there anything differently that you're starting to look at? Is there an extra diligence you're starting to look at throughout the portfolios? And ultimately, will that require any incremental spend if these instances start to kind of percolate throughout the industry? Marc Lipschultz - Blue Owl Capital Inc - Co-Chief Executive Officer, Co-Founder, Director Yeah, thanks. And I think maybe what I take a slight step back and just try to comprehensively address the overall credit theme question and well phrased. So I think it's actually important to level set in one place to begin with, which is credit quality here, our peers and at the banks for that matter, despite some (technical difficulty) is very strong, very strong. REFINITIV STREETEVENTS | www.refinitiv.com | Contact Us consent of Refinitiv. 'Refinitiv' and the Refinitiv logo are registered trademarks of Refinitiv and its affiliated companies. OCTOBER 30, 2025 / 2:00PM, OWL.N - Q3 2025 Blue Owl Capital Inc Earnings Call The -- I'm going to come back to us, but let's just start with the ecosystem in total. It's very healthy. The ecosystem, the credit ecosystem is extremely well capitalized. It's trillions and trillions of dollars, and then you have a problem. And in this case, as you point out, a handful of problems that appear to be rooted in fraud, which is kind of the least relevant indicative issue when it comes to credit quality or systemic problems and yet has garnered extraordinary amounts of attention. Banks do a very good job. Like I don't want this to be misunderstood. We're all part of a common ecosystem. We have a different approach. But take banks like Wells Fargo. They do a phenomenal job. JPMorgan, phenomenal job. These are great institutions, and we work with them all the time. And so I think we should start with -- there's almost like -- I don't know you're all familiar with the Mandela effect. This is like the Mandela effect of finance, which is this just common population collective misimpression of what's going on. And for those who don't there's these like people imagine that the monopoly guy had a monopole, he didn't, or the tail has a black tip, it doesn't. There's just these common misunderstandings and misimaginations, and I can do a list so everyone has one. Fruit of the loom doesn't have a cornicopia. So in any case, the point being like somehow by just talking about this enough, people have worked themselves into this imaginary world where there's some big or potential credit problem. And from where we sit now, I'm going to be a little more parochial, there's definitely not. When I now look at our book, performance remains extremely strong. Y ou know we've originated over $150 billion in credit over the last decade, and we're still running at 13 basis point loss rates. And it will be higher than that over time, like that's too low. That's not the right rate. We don't suggest it is or should be. And in any given quarter, we have a company that has its challenges. We've had every -- we'll have it every quarter. We'll have some company has a challenge. We have 400 of them. But the key is to have very few when you have them get a good recovery. And all of that is working, and we are not seeing anything in our portfolio that is thematically problematic. We're not seeing anything that suggests a shift in overall credit quality or yellow lights or anything like it. We're still seeing growth. I'm not trying to be -- like I said, of course, there are going to be companies that get in trouble. We've had them and we will have them. Some our peers and some all the banks that's the nature of being a lender. But the key is, is it thematic, does it suggest anything greater or does it even really matter much to the net result when you talk about such small numbers of defaults with any reason recovery, and the answer is it doesn't. And so I'm not -- by any trying to be dismissive, but I do think like a little bit of a step back because now like this daily rhythm of -- like everyone saying, what this thing, what about that thing? As for the items you mentioned, now let me just tie it back again. Now I'll just be again rather than try to speak so broadly. Actually, the strength of what we do in asset-backed is exactly what you described, the thoroughness with which we tie in with the originators, the quality of the originators, like just like we do in sponsor finance, we care who the partner is. we care who that originator is. And I have to tell you that there's a lot of reasons to think that SoFi and PayPal are really well-run companies that aren't -- I hope god willing, companies like that are not any part of the problems that we're talking about. And so that is part of selection. Then there's how you do it. There are tools that can be deployed and we deploy in this business. You do use third-party servicers. That's a way to have someone else looking. You do field checks. And by the way, if you do field checks in some of these circumstances, you see red flags. If you look at platforms, see red flags. Like it is very, a, a lot of work can be done even to confront fraud and prevent or at least prevent get it into your portfolio. And then once you're in any credit, whether let's forget fraud, let's just talk on deteriorating performance, daily data ties, we have a whole data science team here. This is -- that's why I get asset-backed ought to be done by professionals and asset-backed part of why we acquired one of the best in the business because this is a very different business from what many people in credit do. It does have many, many more line items and flows. So do we do anything new? Well, listen, any time there's a problem anywhere in the financial markets. REFINITIV STREETEVENTS | www.refinitiv.com | Contact Us consent of Refinitiv. 'Refinitiv' and the Refinitiv logo are registered trademarks of Refinitiv and its affiliated companies. OCTOBER 30, 2025 / 2:00PM, OWL.N - Q3 2025 Blue Owl Capital Inc Earnings Call Of course, our job is to instantly go back and look and say, does this suggest there's anything else we should have been doing or could be doing? And the comforting answer for you will be we went back, we looked and no, there's nothing that would -- that we missed. There's nothing we would change. We think we have fantastic controls. That doesn't mean no one could ever defraud us. Anybody could be defrauded. But I would tell you that, no, we actually looked in, and when we study what did happen and study how we approach it and frankly, what we even knew about maybe were -- having looked at some of these companies over time. No, I think we feel great about how our process works, but we will always be vigilant about it. But again, I think everyone is maybe -- not everyone -- I think we're a little careful of just kind of this, churning and churning and churning. I think the credit system banks and private lenders, I think we're in a really, really healthy place. And the last thing I'll say, if you really -- if someone's looking around for, oh, you know what, there's really some problem in the world of credit, then I would tell you that people should take the flight to quality and get into our BDCs and get into our real estate products, all of which are designed to be defensive and take credit. It's the senior part of the equity capital stack. The last point I'll make it -- I don't mean to on about this, but I know it's a really important topic to the market right now, and I understand that. If you're actually concerned about the broad credit industry, banks, private lenders included, I mean people need to take a pause and think about what that means for their equity books. We are the senior parts of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of companies. And by the way, many favorably selected by sector, by sponsor, by capital structure. So if you really are watching this problem, we're all collectively turn our attention to in that case, wildly overvalued equity markets, and we ought to have people moving into credit, not out of credit. And that's not my opinion that we have while we've overvalued. I think we actually have a really healthy economy and a really healthy ecosystem. And we'll ask I see it with our portfolio. We continue to see great strength.

Question: Chris Kotowski - Oppenheimer & Co Inc - Analyst : So I'm trying to think about going back to the data center financing space and trying to think about how -- when we see these press reports about financing, how to translate it into what it means for your AUM and fee-paying AUM, when, where and how much. So thinking about Hyperion, for example, the reports I saw that you put in about $2.5 billion of equity, there was $27 billion of debt and that the lease terms going to 2049. So three-part question then. One, I assume what's AUM for you is the $2.5 billion, not the $27 billion. Two, I assume that, that $2.5 billion is primarily spoken by VIor by infra III. And as such, it would already be in the fee paying AUM, but it would explain why you're coming back to market so soon? And then thirdly, does this stay fee paying AUM for you until 2049? Or are there step downs before then? Marc Lipschultz - Blue Owl Capital Inc - Co-Chief Executive Officer, Co-Founder, Director Yeah. So a few things, and then Alan and I will cover both parts of this. So our investment in Meta's equity is roughly $3 billion just to use the right number between us. That is deployed by us over time into -- and therefore, to, I think, the point you raised, its commitments today that fund over time, but it's -- there for use of capital. We have several strategies and one of the hallmarks of Blue Owl been this drive to make sure that individual investors and institutions get treated as true peers. REFINITIV STREETEVENTS | www.refinitiv.com | Contact Us consent of Refinitiv. 'Refinitiv' and the Refinitiv logo are registered trademarks of Refinitiv and its affiliated companies. OCTOBER 30, 2025 / 2:00PM, OWL.N - Q3 2025 Blue Owl Capital Inc Earnings Call And so we have multiple vehicles, depending on how you choose to participate that will have a strategy that will participate in this product. And so while $3 billion is a gigantic number, right? Remember, we have multiple strategies that participate in that. So you said -- you named two of them very much correctly, our net lease product, for sure, is a relevant piece. Our digital infrastructure is the lead horse, if you will, right? This is an example of a digital infrastructure originated product, which, by the way, wouldn't have if we didn't have IPI, which therefore, benefits the net lease fund back to our point, remember, net lease has participated. By the way, net lease is where we originated Oracle. So that can be a benefit for digital infrastructure. So these aren't coincidental combinations. Then and very importantly, we have our ORENT triple net lease product and are now ODEBT, our digital infrastructure trust. And those are the wealth access channels, those participate. So it isn't a matter of -- I wonder if I picked the right firm. It's really did I pick the right firm, and investors picked the right firm. And so we have homes for that. For that equity and it's great equity. So that's really how we approach it. And then just to calls out your point, yes, there will be gaps between the time we commit and the time we deploy. So that does, in part, explain if people are trying to reconcile drawdown to when we'll be back in market, obviously, once we commit to Meta, whether we funded it today or two years from now, I mean, you have to have that money on hand. As for assets under management. Well, of course, it depends on the vehicle. But it is the case that within a perpetual product, we're talking about long periods of time, we've got 20-something years. But yes, that asset could just stay there -- could stay there forever. I mean, in that sense of the word, 20-plus years. So we would get paid -- continue that, again, is the beauty of matching capital structure to assets. in our funds, it won't stay forever, right, in our funds, like our real estate funds, we will often buy and then we'll sell at nice premiums, the results. And in fact, that's is a thing we're talking just the other day, actually, like our real estate product. So we want to invest in real estate and you want to make well risk managed returns, you look at our -- we've now fully invested and exited our first three real estate funds. And as the 24% net IRR doing business with IG companies. And that has to do with the difference between the running kind of double-digit hold forever kinds of returns to buy -- if you create things at 7 and 8, and if you want to, sell some of them at 5 to 6s, you generate very high IRR. So the beauty is we have the ability to do all of the above. And whoever joins us, they can pick their entry path and participate in these -- this digital transformation.

Question: Brian Bedell - Deutsche Bank AG - Analyst : Maybe just continuing on that line of that question, just extending that to maybe tying it back to some comments you made earlier in the call, Marc, about the supply of capital for digital infrastructure versus the deployment opportunities being very vast over a long period of time. How do you think about the strategy of fundraising to try to match that deployment in the future? I know you have, of course, IPI for coming up, and real estate even still in the market. But as we think -- as you think about that timeline over the next 1 to 2 and even 3 years, in terms of trying to match that demand if you think that's still going to be there. What are the strategies either, either launch new funds or use the retail markets maybe as a more major fundraiser for those projects? Marc Lipschultz - Blue Owl Capital Inc - Co-Chief Executive Officer, Co-Founder, Director Yes. So look, I think -- what I had mentioned, and I appreciate the question, look, we have great homes for a lot of capital. And by the way, we're open to very creative approaches also on top of what I'm going to describe. But we have four entry points that allow you to participate in this digital REFINITIV STREETEVENTS | www.refinitiv.com | Contact Us consent of Refinitiv. 'Refinitiv' and the Refinitiv logo are registered trademarks of Refinitiv and its affiliated companies. OCTOBER 30, 2025 / 2:00PM, OWL.N - Q3 2025 Blue Owl Capital Inc Earnings Call transformation depending on exactly what assets you want and what type of structure you want. And that's like, again, this is very driven around meeting our investors where they live. So I'm not going to repeat it at all, but we have our real estate product, as you said, real estate VII in the market. Real Estate VII is a diversified triple-net lease product that owns a variety of different kinds of real estate projects with really strong tenants and 15- and 20-year leases. I think we're running in our product right now of close to an 8 average cap in those real estate products. We have a long history of stability and great results. And that's a great institutional entry into real estate. And in fact, you're doing real estate, I -- it's a little hard for us to say why that wouldn't be the way you'd want to do real estate period with that word stopping there. Now if you want a vertical exposure into the data centers, which is this moment in time generational we think, opportunity. I think by the way, as years to run, again, just go read the headlines, everyone keeps announcing bigger numbers, not smaller numbers, and their mind-bending numbers. Then we have our digital infrastructure business, where once again, we have an unparalleled history. We've done over 100 different data centers. I think today, we have -- already have or are building 10 gigawatts, and I know that's not like an intuitive term. But if you think about a gigawatt is the amount of power that a typical sizable city in America consumes. So when you think about it, we're talking about like right now, we have built or are building 10 cities worth of data center capability. And of course, that's a fraction of the market. So you can participate. And those are both drawdown funds. So if you are comfortable and like that structure, you'll be in a drawdown fund. It obviously, therefore, means it's more about money going in and ultimately cycling back out, but it's drawdown and it has all the positive and negative attributes to that structure. The exact parallel to that is you can participate in ORENT, which is obviously our continuously offered version that allows you to participate in triple-net leased assets. And each one as a slight nuance in the kinds of projects. One is built more for hold and collecting yields. One is built more for sort of that drawdown and ultimate exit, but they're participating in the same origination engine, so you can participate there. And then on the digital infrastructure side, as an individual, if you prefer to have the semi-liquid option where you can get your yields and then come and redeem the capital of redemption on a quarterly basis, then you come into ODIT. So if I put those four together, we have the horizontal real estate solution and the vertical data center solution. We have the drawdown entry point. And continuously offered semi-liquid edgy point. So I think we have everything you need, and we welcome anybody anywhere. QIA is anchoring and coming into the continuously offered product. So I even think this idea that people like an institutional product in we've never described that, but now more than ever, that isn't the right way to think about it. It's about creating structures and matching them to people's preferences, about the kinds of assets and access to capital and holds and the like that they have in mind. So QIA is in ODIT. So that's really how we've laid out our system. We don't have as many products as most people. We won't have as many products as most. We are open, of course, doing SMAs and customized solutions. But we're really trying to make sure we have the right entry points and that they're all scaled.