ING Groep NV Q1 2025 Earnings Call Transcript

The following is excerpted from the question-and-answer section of the transcript.

Question: Benoit Petratque - Kepler Cheuvreux - Analyst : Yes, good morning. So I've got two questions. The first one is on the liability and lending margin, and the second one is on the share buybank. So maybe starting with the liability margin, I guess the 101 bps posted in Q1 is the strongest given versus expectations. What is your view on liability margin for the rest of the year? I think in the previous quarter, you put a comment that it could drop temporarily below the 100 bps mark. I'm just wondering is it still something you expect? I don't see any similar comments in the Q1 presentation. And then on lending margin, also again, could you maybe give us a bit of a kind of update on the guidance, which was at 130 bps before? And also clarify the impact of day count, specifically in the first quarter. And also if you continue to expect the mix effect to be negative in the coming quarters on lending margin. And then maybe just briefly on buyback. It was just to get a bit of a view of how you got to the 12.8%, 13%, what have been the consideration taken on board to get to that level? Thank you very much. Steven Van Rijswijk - ING Groep NV - Chairman of the Executive Board and the Management Board Banking, Chief Executive Officer All right. Thank you very much, Benoit. And Tanate will take the questions on liability lending margins, and let me answer you the question with share buyback. Look, we have a target of around 12.5%. Clearly, the world now knows quite some volatility and macroeconomic uncertainty, given that terror and all the discussions that are going on. REFINITIV STREETEVENTS | www.refinitiv.com | Contact Us consent of Refinitiv. 'Refinitiv' and the Refinitiv logo are registered trademarks of Refinitiv and its affiliated companies. MAY 02, 2025 / 7:00AM, INGA.AS - Q1 2025 ING Groep NV Earnings Call And in that setting, we have said we want to be prudent. And in that mix or fork, if you want to call it that way, we are targeting for 2025, 12.8% to 13%, but our longer-term target remains 12.5%. Tanate Phutrakul - ING Groep NV - Chief Financial Officer, Member of the Management Board Banking, Member of the Executive Board Benoit, to answer your question on liability NII first. I think our expectation is that our net interest margin on liability will remain at roughly similar levels in Q2, okay? What has -- we've seen in Q1 in terms of our optimism is that the volume growth has been strong. As you know, in a number of markets, we have had significant rate cuts, including the Netherlands, and we have seen no reduction in terms of balances based on those rate cuts, which means that if we had to take further rate cuts, we are confident in the resilience of our liability franchise. Okay. Then in terms of lending margin, yes. So the lending margin is coming down a little bit in Q2. I think it's driven by three impact. First is the day count impact, which has an impact of approximately 1.5 basis points. The lending mix has changed, particularly strong growth in terms of mortgages, and the mix in terms of wholesale banking has also changed. So those are the second. And the third is that the funding of the mortgage book has lengthened somewhat in light of interest rate movements. So that is something on lending margin. But I think guidance for the rest of the year, we don't give that guidance on lending margin. But I give you the components of what's moving the margin during the course of Q1.

Question: Giulia Aurora Miotto - Morgan Stanley - Analyst : Yeah, hi, good morning, and thank you for taking my questions. So I, the first one is a quick follow-up on the 12.8% to 13% just to reassure the market. Did that involve any ECB request? And if the situation normalizes, do you plan to go back to 12.5%? And then secondly, to stay on the capital topic. During the quarter, you have taken a stake in Van Lanschot and there have been headlines around potential M&A activity in Spain and Italy. So can you please comment on whether you are indeed looking at something explain in Italy and whether you would consider buying something which is sort of an old school bank with branches even if you are mostly digital in these countries. Thank you. Steven Van Rijswijk - ING Groep NV - Chairman of the Executive Board and the Management Board Banking, Chief Executive Officer All right. Thank you, Giulia, for your questions. And now let me confirm the 12.8% to 13% is our own decision. It has nothing to do with the ECB. So this was not been discussed with the ECB. As such, we have just taken it on decision based on what we see. Nothing more, nothing less. And the goal remains 12.5%, and everybody knows that, including the ECB. On you start with Van Lanschot, but you basically the question is about are you looking at acquisitions? And then where are you going to look at acquisitions, I believe, would you buy an all school bank. REFINITIV STREETEVENTS | www.refinitiv.com | Contact Us consent of Refinitiv. 'Refinitiv' and the Refinitiv logo are registered trademarks of Refinitiv and its affiliated companies. MAY 02, 2025 / 7:00AM, INGA.AS - Q1 2025 ING Groep NV Earnings Call We are very pleased with our autonomous strategy, where we also on Capital Markets Day, said that we want to diversify more, diversify within existing segments in Gen Z or mass affluent, for example, whereby we want to provide more specific propositions to our existing customer base. Diversification in terms of deeper product capabilities and wholesale banking and financial markets and transaction services in the markets, which are active, and diversification in terms of filling in the blanks, if you will. If for example, Business Banking, Consumer Lending, Private Banking and Wealth Management, markets where we are active but don't have these activities as yet. We have these activities, for example, in Belgium and the Netherlands, but not all of them -- but not all of them in Germany and Spain and Italy and other markets. So that's what we're doing, and we're good at it. At the same time, if we can accelerate that growth, if it is a skill or a product that we do not have or if it can increase our domestic market position because retail is still largely a local scale game given the compartmentalization of regulation in Europe, then we will look at it, and we are looking at it in the marketing which are active. And then it has to also fulfill our strict M&A and ROE criteria that we have, and that's how we will look at it. And when there is something to tell you about it, we will, but there's currently nothing to comment about any specific opportunity.

Question: Hari Sivakumaran - Keefe, Bruyette, & Woods, Inc. - Analyst : Hi there. Could I ask on slide 23, and I appreciate you're quite consistent here in getting the quarter end forward curve. But just given the rates have been quite volatile, if we roll forward a month, I would guess that the kind of the EUR9 billion in 2025 would move towards EUR8 million. But I'm just wondering with the steeper yield curve, is that kind of EUR10 billion number in 2027, is that a little more sticky? And then my second question is on the wholesale business. I can see the RWAs are coming down and that's in line with the strategy. But I was a bit surprised that the FTEs are increasing. It's up 5% this quarter and up 11% year-on-year. So any color on that would be helpful. Steven Van Rijswijk - ING Groep NV - Chairman of the Executive Board and the Management Board Banking, Chief Executive Officer Thank you very much, Hari. I will give the question on Page 23 to Tanate. When it comes to the FTE in Wholesale Banking, yes, it has to do with more fee business. So that we are broadening our capabilities in financial markets, which by the way, had a very good quarter. We're putting salespeople more on the ground to be able to diversify better. And that's why we continue to invest there as well. And that's why you see the FTEs going up. So we -- that capability in our operations and where we reach more stability, we can also invest more in either our sales capabilities, our product abilities or our tech platforms. Tanate Phutrakul - ING Groep NV - Chief Financial Officer, Member of the Management Board Banking, Member of the Executive Board Hi, Haru, on Page 23, as you see, we're consistent in providing this every quarter to show the impact. And I think what we have done also during the course of the last six months has been extending the duration of the replication, so that instead of 50-50 duration, we have now gone to 55-45, REFINITIV STREETEVENTS | www.refinitiv.com | Contact Us consent of Refinitiv. 'Refinitiv' and the Refinitiv logo are registered trademarks of Refinitiv and its affiliated companies. MAY 02, 2025 / 7:00AM, INGA.AS - Q1 2025 ING Groep NV Earnings Call which should help stabilize a bit replication results in '26 and '27. We also are quite demonstrating quite strong engine in terms of liability growth in the first quarter, and we expect that trend to continue into the rest of the year. And lastly, of course, we manage for margin, right? That you can see that we have taken significant rate action in the first quarter of this year with a full year impact of EUR1 billion. And that our room in terms of cutting rates remains in place. For every 10 basis points cut, it means EUR400 million additional revenue. So those are some of the components to describe a bit what's happening and how levers that we could pull in terms of stabilizing our replicated revenue.

Question: Farquhar Murray - Bernstein Autonomous LLP - Analyst : Morning, I just had two questions, if I may. Firstly, I mean, deposit volumes are clearly running better than the 4%. You seem to expect that to continue to integrate and replicate dynamics better. So I just wondered why you perhaps maybe on edging NII guidance a bit better. On the other hand, I presume the 130 bps on lending margins, they're probably a little bit stretching given the dynamics you outlined earlier. And then secondly, on the CET1 targeting for full year '25, I mean, it's early in the year, the tariffs discussion could frankly settle out as quickly as it flared up. In those circumstances, would you revert back to the 12.5% CET1 target for this year end? Or when realistically might you do that? Steven Van Rijswijk - ING Groep NV - Chairman of the Executive Board and the Management Board Banking, Chief Executive Officer On the CET1 target, look, there is quite a bit of uncertainty. And we want to at least remain consistent. That was consistency right now. So for '25, we stick to that target. And then depending on how things will be, then we're going to move back to the 12.5%. Tanate Phutrakul - ING Groep NV - Chief Financial Officer, Member of the Management Board Banking, Member of the Executive Board Then on liability margin and the volume outperformance in Q1, I emphasize it's only Q1. So in fact, it's early in the year, we are much more optimistic and confident in maintaining our net interest margin or liability, but no change in guidance for now.

Question: Tarik El Mejjad - Bank of America - Analyst : Hi, good morning, everyone. Just two questions from me as well. On the margins first, can you explain a bit the deposit growth strategy you have in Germany? And this campaign targets, what exactly -- what type of deposits and what's your plan for the rest of the year on this? And still on the margins, you mentioned before, Tanate, that your portfolio was purely to replicate the positive behaviors and you're not playing with duration or mix, and now you've shifted from 40-50 to 50-50 and now 55-45. How is that, I mean, are you still willing to actually pull it even further if the rate pressure intensified to maintain your leverage margin around 100, 110? And then on the capital return, I mean, to follow-up on Farqu's question on reversing back. I mean, I just, I don't want to be too cynical here. But if, let's say, I mean, situation improved a bit better, I mean, this capital higher capital target is not also a bit to gather or retain some capital for potentially M&A? Or is it purely macro-driven kind of uncertainty driven? Yes, I'll keep it here. Steven Van Rijswijk - ING Groep NV - Chairman of the Executive Board and the Management Board Banking, Chief Executive Officer All right. Thanks, Tarik. I'll take the one on capital and on deposit strategy, and then Tanate will talk about duration. On the deposit strategy, look, I mean, we have a great deal of experience on these customer acquisition campaigns and we've done this for decades. So we know fairly well what to do at which point in time and what to expect. And therefore, we've seen that in Germany previously as well, but also in other markets that we deploy these campaigns. And these campaigns basically then are aimed either as fresh money, that should show an NPV. Fresh money obviously existing customers that we've shown positive NPV on a 12-month basis, or if they are linked to new-to-customer banks and they show a 2- to 3-year payback period. And again, the target of course is that we make these guys primary customers, because then they will do more business with us at higher ROE levels. And so these campaigns are very targeted, very precise, very data-driven, which means that we continuously monitor what they do, how much money will remain in the bank. And we've seen the success of that over the past couple of years. And that's how we go about that. And again, you saw it this quarter, we had a very successful campaign in Germany. And in each market, we continuously look at and discuss where and how do we plan these campaigns to get money in and get more customers to work with us because it drives scalability and that drives ROE. Tanate? Tanate Phutrakul - ING Groep NV - Chief Financial Officer, Member of the Management Board Banking, Member of the Executive Board Yes. On duration, you're right, basically, we manage duration on a basis of maintaining stable balance sheet, right? That is what is our hedging goal. And as interest rates starts to decline sharply in the next the last few months, we have also adjusted the duration to the anticipated client behavior situation that we have. And as a side effect of that by increasing the duration it brings further stability to our income in '26 and '27. Steven Van Rijswijk - ING Groep NV - Chairman of the Executive Board and the Management Board Banking, Chief Executive Officer And then on the third question, I forgot, Tarik, everybody is entitled to their own cynicism. But I can assure you, this is only because of the macroeconomic circumstances, nothing else.

Question: Benjamin Goy - Deutsche Bank - Analyst : Good morning and Two questions from my side. So the first on loan growth. You mentioned a healthy pipeline in Wholesale Banking, but maybe you can speak a bit about how much more specific it has become and and how much confidence you have in an improving outlook from here? And then secondly, on financial specifically, maybe you can explain again why a minority stake is the right amount of investment? Steven Van Rijswijk - ING Groep NV - Chairman of the Executive Board and the Management Board Banking, Chief Executive Officer All right. I think if you look at loan growth in the Wholesale Bank, look, what we do see is very healthy pipelines. And I think that if you look at our Wholesale Bank, which has good global diversification, but also a very good diversification in Europe, with strong typically top 5 lending positions in most of the markets in which we're active in Europe, which is 20% plus, then we can benefit quite a bit from, let's say, investment push that Europe wants to give an infrastructure and defense and in technology. And also the plan that Germany has, it will always take a while for these plans to come to fruition. So the pipeline is healthy. The question will be the conversion. So -- and of course, there is uncertainty. We've seen that industry and consumer confidence parameters are relatively low. So we need to see what the conversion levels are, but we are confident that when they come, that we are then a bank that will be able to benefit from it and it's just a matter of time when the uncertainty will lift. So that's where we currently are, and that will then result in a higher or lower conversion. On Van Lanschot, I mean, like we also said during Capital Markets Day, we want to diversify further. But also want to diversify our capital more towards the retail segment, which has more sustainably higher return levels. And that's why we have a capital program in Wholesale Banking, whereby we increasingly use all kinds of techniques and insurances and secondary sell-downs to reuse the capital more often in Wholesale Banking and to we grow faster in Retail Banking. And as part of this, with Van Lanschot, which is also a retail player, we have also moved part of our capital, again, into the Retail Banking space, which is exactly what we want to increase the weight of capital from wholesale to retail. And this as to it.

Question: Delphine Lee - JPMorgan - Analyst : Yeah, thank you for taking my questions. So my first one is going back to liability margins. So just wanted to understand a little bit with the actions I mean, so with the actions you've taken on deposit rates that leads to total EUR1 billion. I mean what is your target for the full year still EUR1.3 billion? Or do you think I mean, how much more can you really get? Just to understand the moving parts within NII given the low rates. And then my second question is just on sort of cost of risk asset quality. I've seen you've increased your Stage 1, Stage 2 provisions. If you don't mind just reminding us a little bit your assumptions macro-wise, under IFRS 9 accounting. REFINITIV STREETEVENTS | www.refinitiv.com | Contact Us consent of Refinitiv. 'Refinitiv' and the Refinitiv logo are registered trademarks of Refinitiv and its affiliated companies. MAY 02, 2025 / 7:00AM, INGA.AS - Q1 2025 ING Groep NV Earnings Call Steven Van Rijswijk - ING Groep NV - Chairman of the Executive Board and the Management Board Banking, Chief Executive Officer All right. I'll give the question on liability, the EUR1.3 billion to Tanate, and on Stage 1, Stage 2 to Ljiljana. Ljiljana Cortan - ING Groep NV - Chief Risk Officer, Member of the Management Board Banking, Member of the Executive Board Let me start. Thank you very much for the question. You've seen the asset quality in the first quarter has improved when it comes to all of the indicators. And what we are typically proud of is that the Stage 3 ratio has decreased and specifically, provisions for Stage 3 have decreased, specifically on the individual side. You are right, Stage 2, combined also with Stage 1, amounts to EUR98 million this quarter and it's the impact of several parts. First is, correct, the macroeconomic forecast. And when we do the macroeconomic forecast, we use the external unbiased scenarios and we update our models regularly in order to make sure that they are objective and that they are following the latest, I would say, outlooks. That's one. Secondly, you've seen in the first quarter differently than previously that there has not been significant over lease decrease. That means that the risk cost as shown is in Stage 1 and Stage 2 are the real risk costs coming from the, as I say, macroeconomics, risk migration, and some model also changes. However, normalized, we do see the situation still below through the cycle. Tanate Phutrakul - ING Groep NV - Chief Financial Officer, Member of the Management Board Banking, Member of the Executive Board Just on liability margin, again, I think you go back to Page 23 that shows the replication impact. I think a couple of points to add there. One is that the savings rate cuts that we have taken year-to-date May 2, results in EUR1 billion. But we didn't explain further that, in fact, the term deposit rate cuts also has a positive impact on top of that EUR1 billion. So that's the first point to make. The second is that, as you know, in a number of markets, we are not the best price in terms of deposit costs. And yet by our rate actions, our deposit volume continues to be stable or increasing. So that give us confidence, and that's because of the granular levels of our retail deposits which averaged around EUR15,000 per person. And then the last point is that our blended cost of Eurozone deposits for savings and term deposits is 143 basis points at the end of Q1. So we do have room for further rate action if required. And every 10 basis point reduction means EUR400 million annualized impact.

Question: Jonathan Matthew Clark - Mediobanca - Banca di credito finanziario S.p.A. - Analyst : Hi, some questions on the replicating portfolio, please. So firstly, just to understand, you said that the shift from 50% to 55% invested over one year happened over the last six months. Can you be a bit more -- was it genuinely a gradual implementation, because I wasn't aware in prior commentary that you said that it was moving. REFINITIV STREETEVENTS | www.refinitiv.com | Contact Us consent of Refinitiv. 'Refinitiv' and the Refinitiv logo are registered trademarks of Refinitiv and its affiliated companies. MAY 02, 2025 / 7:00AM, INGA.AS - Q1 2025 ING Groep NV Earnings Call And then what duration or what maturity instruments have you been buying at in order to make that shift? And what's the overall updated duration of the replicating portfolio overall now? I think it used to be 2.4% you guided, but presumably, that's moved up as a result of this shift. So some commentary there, please. Steven Van Rijswijk - ING Groep NV - Chairman of the Executive Board and the Management Board Banking, Chief Executive Officer All right. I give the questions to Tanate. Tanate Phutrakul - ING Groep NV - Chief Financial Officer, Member of the Management Board Banking, Member of the Executive Board Yeah. The shift to 55% is happening gradually over time. And that's shifting with the forward curve coming down, right? So the replication stretches over time. So it's been gradual not happening in 1 fell swoop over 6 months, okay? In terms of the majority instrument that we use, it's a combination of using swaps to extend the duration, and of course, using our investment portfolio as a hedge. And then the average duration is around 2.4 years still, roughly, mid time.

Question: Jonathan Matthew Clark - Mediobanca - Banca di credito finanziario S.p.A. - Analyst : Oka. You weren't selling 354 days by [ 357 ] instruments... Tanate Phutrakul - ING Groep NV - Chief Financial Officer, Member of the Management Board Banking, Member of the Executive Board No, no, we're not doing that.

Question: Kirishanthan Vijayarajah - HSBC - Analyst : Yeah, good morning, everyone, A couple of questions, if I may. On fees and the 24% growth in the insurance part of the feed, could we just have a bit more color which geographies, which partnerships, which specific products are driving that growth? And then secondly, actually, still on fees, the Retail brokerage activity, the data looks pretty strong through April with all the market volatility. And I guess we've seen that movie before. But does it feel like there's some sustainability there? Or should we think of the kind of recent April as more of a blip in terms of retail brokerage and maybe some weakening as we go into the summer on that side, I think. So two questions on fees, please. Steven Van Rijswijk - ING Groep NV - Chairman of the Executive Board and the Management Board Banking, Chief Executive Officer All right. First of all, I think that on fees, what we want to do is to continuously increase the alpha, that also means that in the past couple of years we have put in substantial efforts to not only have daily banking, but also to grow our investment product business and our insurance business. And I'm sure we're going to add a few more in the next couple of years and whether will tell you something about that. But one of them was insurance because that is good annuity income for our existing customer base. And so we have, in all the retail markets, contracts with providers, there's different providers that we work with. There are different structures we work with, depending on the market. And also we introduced insurance also for Business Banking in different markets, which in the past we did not have. So it started out small a few years ago. And once or twice I've made remarks about that we have relatively small insurance distribution fees. But now you see it's becoming quite sizable, and we expect this to continue. When we talk about retail brokerage, the first quarter we had -- and more higher asset under management and we had more and we had a higher number of people who are trading with us that is now currently 4.6% in capital markets sorry, EUR4.6 million. I said in the Capital Markets Day last year, it was about EUR4.2 million. So okay, now it moved up to about 11%, 12%. It's good, but that still means that approximately 88% of our customer base is not trading through ING if they are trading. So there's a lot of upside there. And we continue to refine our products, improve and centralize our investment engine, improve our reporting. So move to additional segments also not only brokers but also simple advice and personal adviser. There are new brackets setting. So we are confident in being able to further grow that and that will support the fee guidance that we have given, but we remain very confident on that.

Question: Johan Ekblom - UBS - Analyst : Thank you, Can I just follow up on two things that we haven't spoken about, one is at the Capital Market Day, we spoke about the use of significant risk transfer trades. Can you just give us an update on where you are, if there is anything any impact in Q1 or where you are in terms of time lines there? And then, I guess, secondly, also just an update on the Business Banking rollout in Germany, where we are there would be helpful. REFINITIV STREETEVENTS | www.refinitiv.com | Contact Us consent of Refinitiv. 'Refinitiv' and the Refinitiv logo are registered trademarks of Refinitiv and its affiliated companies. MAY 02, 2025 / 7:00AM, INGA.AS - Q1 2025 ING Groep NV Earnings Call Steven Van Rijswijk - ING Groep NV - Chairman of the Executive Board and the Management Board Banking, Chief Executive Officer On Business Banking question, I give that question to Tanate. Now on Business Banking, roll out has gone well. We focus on the digital part of Business Banking. So that means self-employed, SME. We also with that, we have a proposition with also a payment proposition that we then that will go with it. And that will and therefore, we greatly grow step by step, but still in the bigger scheme of things, it remains small, but we're confident that we're going to be able to also realize the position in that market. Because there's a a lot of untapped potential, especially on the digital side, where there's no other player really in Germany that rolls it out in a way that we are currently rolling it out. Tanate Phutrakul - ING Groep NV - Chief Financial Officer, Member of the Management Board Banking, Member of the Executive Board We're still planning on doing an SRT trade this year. We're in the process of preparing for that. And we expect that trades to happen in the second half of the year. In terms of size, I think we expect, subject to regulatory approval and market condition, somewhere around a 10 basis point relief on core Tier 1 in the second half of the year.

Question: Anke Reingen - RBC - Analyst : Yeah, thank you very much. Just two follow-up questions. The first is on your the increase in your temporary increase in your target capital ratio of 12.8% to 13%, the sort of like cautious dance that's underpinning this increase. What other business decision has it sort of like impacted? Are you looking more cautious on your lending investment spend or how, where else does it sort of like impact your operations or you're thinking? And then just in terms of April and the tariffs, given you are obviously very strong in the corporate banking world, just curious about what you're seeing from customers. So maybe a bit more cautious at the beginning of IPO, but are you seeing more demand for loans or cash balances in the last few days? Steven Van Rijswijk - ING Groep NV - Chairman of the Executive Board and the Management Board Banking, Chief Executive Officer All right. I'll take the question on customers, and I will give the question on where we are, where are we cautious and how do we look at, let's say, the circumstances on Ljiljana. So if you look at our customers, look, I mean there's two tails, if you will, maybe even a few more. But on the one hand, we have retail. And there which is 65% of our lending book, and there you see that a significant part of that retail lending book is mortgages. And if you then look at mortgages, we are active in markets which have low unemployment rates, and that's Belgium, Germany, Poland, Spain. And so in all of those markets, you see good growth on the back of low unemployment, on the back of the market restoring after, let's say, the start of the Ukraine war and the high interest rates that it brought with it, which are then coming down on the back of house shortages. And as you see also the pick on one of the slides where we show a number of these developments that are supporting that. That's one on the retail side. Secondly, on the retail side, you see customer confidence relatively low, but we don't actually see that back in our payment volumes. We are one of the biggest payment providers in Europe and these are the number of payments that are being done or the volume of those payments remains strong. So we can't see it in indicators there. So there is not so much to see on the retail side of things. REFINITIV STREETEVENTS | www.refinitiv.com | Contact Us consent of Refinitiv. 'Refinitiv' and the Refinitiv logo are registered trademarks of Refinitiv and its affiliated companies. MAY 02, 2025 / 7:00AM, INGA.AS - Q1 2025 ING Groep NV Earnings Call What we do see in Wholesale Banking is that you saw the lending demand and the lending growth in Wholesale Banking was relatively subdued with a small decrease. Yes, there, companies are a bit uncertain depending on the sector and the import tariffs that are being levied. You maybe see that in -- there was a lot of quick demand in the first quarter in the expectation that these tariffs would come, that demand then goes a bit down at the end of the first quarter and into the second quarter. And then you see that in terms of production companies or transportation companies, there is a bit more conservatism in terms of investments. That's what we currently see. We don't see a big inflow currently in our restructuring departments that not you see with caution and further growth in investments being made on the wholesale side. Ljiljana? Ljiljana Cortan - ING Groep NV - Chief Risk Officer, Member of the Management Board Banking, Member of the Executive Board Thank you for the question, Anke. I think Steven already gave some flavor to how we think. Maybe to add, we know the tariffs are not good for everyone, and there are clearly no winners in that game. And they have several of the consequences. And the one we've seen in April, which was the spike in market volatility, and during that spikes, I think ING has weathered really strongly through it and with no extra demand for cash or non honored margin calls or collateral calls. So everything was business as usual. And through our strict monitoring, we're going to ensure that in case of eventual future spikes, we do the same. The other consequence that the towers have brought are definitely economic uncertainty. And here, our plans need a bit more time and we need a bit more time as to understand how is it exactly going to impact the economy and their business models. And while we have dissected our Wholesale Banking portfolio depending on geographies, industry sectors, we have concluded that the direct impact of the tariffs would be limited based on the fact that we are well diversified into the economies that are less affected by the tariffs, but as well that we are well diversified in industry sectors that are under less pressure. And that is all confirmed also by strong financial flexibility of our clients. As you know, approximately 84% of our Wholesale Banking client base is investment grade, and 2/3 of our exposure are fully or partially collateralized. Also, the portion of the plants in our portfolio that have strong exports to the US is limited. All of that gives us, I would say, current confidence that the direct impact from it will be very limited. However, we have to look into when and how the conflicts are going to be resolved in order to understand longer-term impacts on our clients.

Question: Namita Samtani - Barclays - Analyst : And thanks for taking my questions. My first question, is there a correlation between the mobile customers only growing 174,000 this quarter and the amount of deposit cuts you've done? I'm just curious, given the 1 million target of mobile customers you have this year and whether you would sacrifice on the mobile customers target in order to cut deposit rates and defend net interest income? And secondly, I just wanted to make sure the 25 bps deposit cut in Germany, which takes place on the 7th of May, is that included in the EUR1 billion deposit cost guidance or not? REFINITIV STREETEVENTS | www.refinitiv.com | Contact Us consent of Refinitiv. 'Refinitiv' and the Refinitiv logo are registered trademarks of Refinitiv and its affiliated companies. MAY 02, 2025 / 7:00AM, INGA.AS - Q1 2025 ING Groep NV Earnings Call Steven Van Rijswijk - ING Groep NV - Chairman of the Executive Board and the Management Board Banking, Chief Executive Officer All right. I'll take the question on customers. And Tanate, the 25% basis points cut in Germany. Is there a correlation? No, there is no correlation. If you look at the first quarter, typically it's slow. So if you look at the first quarter in many of the previous years, that's also the case. And people come out of, let's say, the festive season, and then generally, there are less products being sold in terms of new customers. So the last year was about 180,000. Now it's about 174,000. So that's a statistical difference is small. So we're still well on our way to reach the 1 million for this year. Tanate Phutrakul - ING Groep NV - Chief Financial Officer, Member of the Management Board Banking, Member of the Executive Board And just to confirm, the second rate cut in Germany of 25 basis points is included in the EUR1 billion.

Question: Farquhar Murray - Bernstein Autonomous LLP - Analyst : Morning, all Just two quick follow-ups. Just on the Dutch mortgage market, 1Q was notably strong. I just wondered whether you saw any moderation there in the second quarter so far? And also, can you just give an outline on how mortgage pricing on new business compared to the back book? And then secondly, one slightly technical question on the new commercial NII disclosure, which is a really positive improvement and thanks for that. It includes a reallocation shift of EUR160 million, I think, for the full year '24. I just wondered if you could give a 1Q '25 impact and perhaps

Question: Jonathan Matthew Clark - Mediobanca - Banca di credito finanziario S.p.A. - Analyst : Just very simplistic please, given commercial NII was up first quarter versus the fourth quarter, given you're guiding liability margins flattish for the next quarter. Can we draw the conclusion that commercial NII has now troughed and should be drifting up from here? That was it. Steven Van Rijswijk - ING Groep NV - Chairman of the Executive Board and the Management Board Banking, Chief Executive Officer Tanate? Tanate Phutrakul - ING Groep NV - Chief Financial Officer, Member of the Management Board Banking, Member of the Executive Board I think, again, I would only describe the moving parts, right? It depends on what the forward curve will do, it depends on our volume growth, lending margin -- sorry, lending volume, liability volume and depends on any further rate action that we do, right? So those are still the moving parts. But I think looking at what we see now, we do see stability. We see a stabilization of our commercial NII and liability. And then we should grow from there.